Democratic Primary Debates

Republican Primary Debates

Vice Presidential Debate
Pence vs. Kaine

Tuesday, October 4, 2016 9 PM/ET

Willett Hall, Longwood University
Farmville, VA

Sponsored by:  Commission On Presidential Debates
Moderated by:  Elaine Quijano of CBS News
Broadcast by:  All major news channels
Participants:  Mike Pence and Tim Kaine

Vice Presidential Debate Format: 90 minutes/nine ten minutes segments/ two minutes response time for first question

Full Transcript and Video of the 2016 Vice Presidential Debate

ELAINE QUIJANO: Good evening. From Longwood University in Farmville, Virginia, and welcome to the first, and only, vice presidential debate of 2016, sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates.

I'm Elaine Quijano, anchor at CBSN, and correspondent for CBS News. It's an honor to moderate this debate between Senator Tim Kaine and Governor Mike Pence. Both are longtime public servants who are also proud fathers of sons serving in the U.S. Marines.

The campaigns have agreed to the rules of this 90-minute debate. There will be nine different segments covering domestic and foreign policy issues. Each segment will begin with a question to both candidates who will each have two minutes to answer. Then I'll ask follow-up questions to facilitate a discussion between the candidates. By coin toss, it's been determined that Senator Kaine will be first to answer the opening question.

We have an enthusiastic audience tonight. They've agreed to only express that enthusiasm once at the end of the debate and right now as we welcome Governor Mike Pence and Senator Tim Kaine.

Gentlemen, welcome. It truly is a privilege to be with both of you tonight.

I'd like to start with the topic of presidential leadership. Twenty-eight years ago tomorrow night, Lloyd Bentsen said the vice presidential debate was not about the qualifications for the vice presidency, but about how if tragedy should occur, the vice president has to step in without any margin for error, without time for preparation, to take over the responsibility for the biggest job in the world.

What about your qualities, your skills, and your temperament equip you to step into that role at a moment's notice? Senator Kaine?

TIM KAINE: Elaine, thank you for being here tonight, and, Governor Pence, welcome. It is so great to be back at Longwood University in Farmville, Virginia.

This is a very special place. Sixty-five years ago, a young, courageous woman, Barbara Johns, led a walkout of her high school, Moton High School. She made history by protesting school segregation. She believed our nation was stronger together. And that walkout led to the Brown v. Board of Education decision that moved us down the path toward equality.

I am so proud to be running with another strong, history-making woman, Hillary Clinton, to be president of the United States. I'm proud because her vision of stronger together, building an economy that works for all, not just those at the top, being safe in the world not only with a strong military, but also strong alliances to battle terrorism and climate change, and also to build a community of respect, just like Barbara Johns tried to do 65 years ago. That's why I'm so proud to be her running mate.

Hillary told me why she asked me to be her running mate. She said the test of a Clinton administration will not be the signing of a bill or the passage of a bill. It'll be whether we can make somebody's life better, whether we can make a classroom better learning environment for schoolkids or teachers, whether we can make a safer -- it's going to be about results.

And she said to me, you've been a missionary and a civil rights lawyer. You've been a city councilman and mayor. You've been a lieutenant governor and governor and now a U.S. senator. I think you will help me figure out how to govern this nation so that we always keep in mind that the success of the administration is the difference we make in people's lives.

And that's what I bring to the ticket, that experience having served at all levels of government. But my primary role is to be Hillary Clinton's right-hand person and strong supporter as she puts together the most historic administration possible. And I relish that role. I'm so proud of her.

I'll just say this: We trust Hillary Clinton, my wife and I, and we trust her with the most important thing in our life. We have a son deployed overseas in the Marine Corps right now. We trust Hillary Clinton as president and commander-in-chief, but the thought of Donald Trump as commander-in-chief scares us to death.

QUIJANO: Governor Pence?

MIKE PENCE: Well, first off, thank you, Elaine, and thank you to -- thank you to Norwood University for their wonderful hospitality and the Commission on Presidential Debates. It's deeply humbling for me to be here, to be surrounded by my -- my wonderful family.

And, Senator Kaine, it's an honor to be here with you, as well. And I just -- I also want to say -- I want to say thanks to everyone that's looking in tonight, who understands what an enormously important time this is in the life of our nation.

For the last seven-and-a-half years, we've seen America's place in the world weakened. We've seen an economy stifled by more taxes, more regulation, a war on coal, and a failing health care reform come to be known as Obamacare, and the American people know that we need to make a change. And so I want to thank all of you for being -- being with us tonight.

I also want to thank Donald Trump for making that call and inviting us to be a part of this ticket. I have to tell you, I'm a -- I'm a small-town boy from a place not too different from Farmville. I grew up with a cornfield in my backyard. My grandfather had immigrated to this country when he was about my son's age. My mom and dad built a -- everything that matters in a small town in Southern Indiana. They built a family and -- and a good name and a business. And they raised a family. And I dreamed some day of representing my home town in Washington, D.C., but I -- honestly, Elaine, I never imagined -- never imagined I'd have the opportunity to be governor of the state that I love, let alone be sitting at a table like this in this kind of a position.

So to answer your question, I would say I -- I would hope that if -- if the responsibility ever fell to me in this role, that I would meet it with the way that I'm going to meet the responsibility should I be elected vice president of the United States. And that's to bring a lifetime of experience, a lifetime growing up in a small town, a lifetime where I've served in the Congress of the United States, where -- where I've led a state that works in the great state of Indiana, and whatever other responsibilities might follow from this, I -- I would hope and, frankly, I would pray to be able to meet that moment with that -- that lifetime of experience.

QUIJANO: Senator Kaine, on the campaign trail, you praised Secretary Clinton's character, including her commitment to public service, yet 60 percent of voters don't think she's trustworthy. Why do so many people distrust her? Is it because they have questions about her e-mails and the Clinton Foundation?

KAINE: Elaine, let me tell you why I trust Hillary Clinton. Here's what people should look at as they look at a public servant. Do they have a passion in their life that showed up before they were in public life? And have they held onto that passion throughout their life, regardless of whether they were in office or not, succeeding or failing?

Hillary Clinton has that passion. From a time as a kid in a Methodist youth group in the suburbs of Chicago, she has been focused on serving others with a special focus on empowering families and kids. As a civil rights lawyer in the South, with the Children's Defense Fund, first lady of Arkansas and this country, senator, secretary of state, it's always been about putting others first. And that's a sharp contrast with Donald Trump.

Donald Trump always puts himself first. He built a business career, in the words of one of his own campaign staffers, "off the backs of the little guy." And as a candidate, he started his campaign with a speech where he called Mexicans rapists and criminals, and he has pursued the discredited and really outrageous lie that President Obama wasn't born in the United States.

It is so painful to suggest that we go back to think about these days where an African-American could not be a citizen of the United States. And I can't imagine how Governor Pence can defend the insult- driven selfish "me first" style of Donald Trump.

QUIJANO: Governor Pence, let me ask you, you have said Donald Trump is, quote, "thoughtful, compassionate, and steady." Yet 67 percent of voters feel he is a risky choice, and 65 percent feel he does not have the right kind of temperament to be president. Why do so many Americans think Mr. Trump is simply too erratic?

PENCE: Well, let me -- let me say first and foremost that, Senator, you and Hillary Clinton would know a lot about an insult- driven campaign. It really is remarkable. At a time when literally, in the wake of Hillary Clinton's tenure as secretary of state, where she was the architect of the Obama administration's foreign policy, we see entire portions of the world, particularly the wider Middle East, literally spinning out of control. I mean, the situation we're watching hour by hour in Syria today is the result of the failed foreign policy and the weak foreign policy that Hillary Clinton helped lead in this administration and create. The newly emboldened -- the aggression of Russia, whether it was in Ukraine or now they're heavy-handed approach...

KAINE: You guys love Russia. You both have said...

PENCE: ... their heavy-handed approach.

KAINE: You both have said -- you both have said Vladimir Putin is a better leader than the president.

PENCE: Well...


QUIJANO: Well, we're going to get to Russia in just a moment. But I do want to get back to the question at...

PENCE: But in the midst -- Elaine, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Senator, I'll...

KAINE: These guys have praised Vladimir Putin as a great leader. How can that...


QUIJANO: Yes, and we will get to that, Senator. We do have that coming up here. But in the meantime, the questions...

PENCE: Well, Senator, I must have hit a...


PENCE: I must have hit a nerve here.

QUIJANO: Why the disconnect?

PENCE: Because at a time of great challenge in the life of this nation, where we've weakened America's place in the world, stifled America's economy, the campaign of Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine has been an avalanche of insults.

Look, to get to your question about trustworthiness, Donald Trump has built a business through hard times and through good times. He's brought an extraordinary business acumen. He's employed tens of thousands of people in this country.

KAINE: And paid few taxes and lost a billion a year.


QUIJANO: And why the disconnect with your running mate?

PENCE: But there's a -- there's a reason why people question the trustworthiness of Hillary Clinton. And that's because they're paying attention. I mean, the reality is, when she was secretary of state, Senator, come on. She had a Clinton Foundation accepting contributions from foreign governments.

KAINE: You are Donald Trump's apprentice. Let me talk about this...


PENCE: Senator, I think I'm still on my time.

KAINE: Well, I think -- isn't this a discussion?

QUIJANO: This is our open discussion.

KAINE: Yeah, let's talk about the state of...


PENCE: Well, let me interrupt -- let me interrupt you and finish my sentence, if I can.

KAINE: Finish your sentence.

PENCE: The Clinton Foundation accepted foreign contributions from foreign governments and foreign donors while she was secretary of state.

KAINE: OK, now I can weigh in. Now...

PENCE: She had a private server...

KAINE: Now, I get to weigh in. Now, let me just say this...

PENCE: ... that was discovered...


QUIJANO: ... Senator, you have an opportunity to respond.

PENCE: ... keep that pay to play process out of the reach of the public.

KAINE: Governor Pence -- Governor Pence doesn't think the world's going so well and he, you know, is going to say it's everybody's fault.

PENCE: Do you?

KAINE: Let me tell you this. When Hillary Clinton became secretary of state, Governor Pence, did you know that Osama bin Laden was alive?


KAINE: Do you know that we had 175,000 troops deployed in the battlefield in Iraq and Afghanistan? Do you know that Iran was racing toward a nuclear weapon and Russia was expanding its stockpile?

Under Secretary Clinton's leadership, she was part of the national team, public safety team that went after and revived the dormant hunt against bin Laden and wiped him off the face of the Earth. She worked to deal with the Russians to reduce their chemical weapons stockpile. She worked a tough negotiation with nations around the world to eliminate the Iranian nuclear weapons program without firing a shot.

PENCE: Eliminate the Iranian nuclear weapons program?

KAINE: Absolutely, without firing a shot. And instead of 175,000 American troops deployed overseas, we now have 15,000.

PENCE: Right and...

KAINE: These are very, very good things.

PENCE: And Iraq has been overrun by ISIS, because Hillary Clinton failed to renegotiate...

KAINE: Well, if you want to put more American troops in Iraq, you can propose that.

PENCE: Hillary Clinton -- Hillary Clinton -- Hillary Clinton failed to renegotiate a status of forces agreement...

KAINE: No, that is incorrect. That's incorrect.

PENCE: And so we removed -- we removed all of our...

QUIJANO: Gentlemen, we'll get to...


PENCE: ... troops from Iraq, and ISIS was able to be conjured up in that vacuum.

KAINE: But I'd like to correct...

PENCE: ... and overrun vast areas of Iraq.

KAINE: Governor, President Bush said we would leave Iraq at the end of 2011. And, Elaine, Iraq didn't want our troops to stay, and they wouldn't give us the protection for our troops. And guess what? If a nation where our troops are serving does not want us to stay, we're not going to stay without their protection.

PENCE: It was a failure of the secretary of state...

QUIJANO: We need to move on to the next topic, gentlemen.

KAINE: If Governor Pence wants to put more troops back in Iraq, that's...

QUIJANO: There are a lot of people wondering in this country about the economy. Let's turn to the issue of the economy.


QUIJANO: According to the nonpartisan Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, neither of your economic plans will reduce the growing $19 trillion gross national debt. In fact, your plans would add even more to it.

Both of you were governors who balanced state budgets. Are you concerned that adding more to the debt could be disastrous for the country. Governor Pence?

PENCE: I think the fact that -- that under this past administration was of which Hillary Clinton was a part, we've almost doubled the national debt is atrocious. I mean, I'm very proud of the fact that -- I come from a state that works. The state of Indiana has balanced budgets. We cut taxes, we've made record investments in education and in infrastructure, and I still finish my term with $2 billion in the bank.

That's a little bit different than when Senator Kaine was governor here in Virginia. He actually -- he actually tried to raise taxes by about $4 billion. He left his state about $2 billion in the hole. In the state of Indiana, we've cut unemployment in half; unemployment doubled when he was governor.

PENCE: But I think he's a very fitting running mate for Hillary Clinton, because in the wake of a season where American families are struggling in this economy under the weight of higher taxes and Obamacare and the war on coal and the stifling avalanche of regulation coming out of this administration, Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine want more of the same. It really is remarkable that they actually are advocating a trillion dollars in tax increases, which I get that. You tried to raise taxes here in Virginia and were unsuccessful.

But a trillion dollars in tax increases, more regulation, more of the same war on coal, and more of Obamacare that now even former President Bill Clinton calls Obamacare a crazy plan. But Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine want to build on Obamacare. They want to expand it into a single-payer program. And for all the world, Hillary Clinton just thinks Obamacare is a good start.

Look, Donald Trump and I have a plan to get this economy moving again just the way that it worked in the 1980s, just the way it worked in the 1960s, and that is by lowering taxes across the board for working families, small businesses and family farms, ending the war on coal that is hurting jobs and hurting this economy even here in Virginia, repealing Obamacare lock, stock, and barrel, and repealing all of the executive orders that Barack Obama has signed that are stifling economic growth in this economy.

We can get America moving again. Put on top of that the kind of trade deals that'll put the American worker first, and you've got a prescription for real growth. And when you get the economy growing, Elaine, that's when you can deal with the national debt. When we get back to 3.5 percent to 4 percent growth with Donald Trump's plan will do, then we're going to have the resources to meet our nation's needs at home and abroad, and we're going to have the ability to bring down the national debt.

QUIJANO: Senator Kaine?

KAINE: Elaine, on the economy, there's a fundamental choice for the American electorate. Do you want a "you're hired" president in Hillary Clinton or do you want a "you're fired" president in Donald Trump? I think that's not such a hard choice.

Hillary and I have a plan that's on the table that's a "you're hired" plan. Five components. First thing we do is we invest in manufacturing, infrastructure, and research in the clean energy jobs of tomorrow. Second thing is we invest in our workforce, from pre-K education to great teachers to debt-free college and tuition-free college for families that make less than $125,000 a year.

Third, we promote fairness by raising the minimum wage, so you can't work full-time and be under the poverty level, and by paying women equal pay for equal work.

Fourth, we promote small business growth, just as we've done in Virginia, to make it easier to start and grow small businesses. Hillary and I each grew up in small-business families. My dad, who ran an iron working and welding shop, is here tonight.

And, fifth, we have a tax plan that targets tax relief to middle- class individuals and small businesses and asks those at the very top who've benefited as we've come out of recession to pay more.

KAINE: The Trump plan is a different plan. It's a "you're fired" plan. And there's two key elements to it. First, Donald Trump said wages are too high. And both Donald Trump and Mike Pence think we ought to eliminate the federal minimum wage.

Mike Pence, when he was in Congress, voted against raising the minimum wage above $5.15. And he has been a one-man bulwark against minimum wage increases in Indiana.

The second component of the plan is massive tax breaks for the very top, trillions of dollars of tax breaks for people just like Donald Trump. The problem with this, Elaine, is that's exactly what we did 10 years ago and it put the economy into the deepest recession -- the deepest recession since the 1930s.

Independent analysts say the Clinton plan would grow the economy by 10.5 million jobs. The Trump plan would cost 3.5 million jobs. And Donald Trump -- why would he do this? Because his tax plan basically helps him. And if he ever met his promise and he gave his tax returns to the American public like he said he would, we would see just how much his economic plan is really a Trump-first plan.

QUIJANO: On that point, Governor Pence, recently the New York Times released part of Mr. Trump's 1995 tax return and reported that he could have avoided paying federal income taxes for years. Yesterday, Mr. Trump said he brilliantly used the laws to pay as little tax as legally possible. Does that seem fair to you?

PENCE: Well, first, let me say, I appreciated the "you're hired," "you're fired" thing, Senator. You use that a whole lot. And I think your running mate used a lot of pre-done lines.

Look, what -- what you all just heard out there is more taxes, $2 trillion in more spending, more deficits, more debt, more government. And if you think that's all working, then you look at the other side of the table. I mean, the truth of the matter is, the policies of this administration, which Hillary Clinton and Senator Kaine want to continue, have run this economy into a ditch. We're in the...

KAINE: Fifteen million new jobs?

PENCE: ... slowest economic recovery since the Great Depression.

KAINE: Fifteen million new jobs?


PENCE: There are millions more people living in poverty today than the day that Barack Obama with Hillary Clinton at his side...

KAINE: And the poverty level and the median income...

PENCE: ... stepped into the Oval Office.

KAINE: ... improved dramatically between 2014 and 2015.

PENCE: You -- honestly, Senator, you can roll out the numbers and the sunny side, but I got to tell you, people in Scranton know different. People in Fort Wayne, Indiana, know different. I mean, this economy is struggling. The answer to this economy is not more taxes.

KAINE: But it's not the giveaway tax relief to the folks at the top.

PENCE: It's not more spending...


KAINE: I am interested to hear whether he'll defend his running mate's not releasing taxes and not paying taxes.

PENCE: Absolutely I will.

QUIJANO: Governor, with all due respect, the question was about whether it seems fair to you that Mr. Trump said he brilliantly used the laws to pay as little tax as legally possible.

PENCE: Well, this is probably the difference between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton and Senator Kaine. And, I mean, Hillary Clinton and Senator Kaine -- God bless you for it, career public servants, that's great -- Donald Trump is a businessman, not a career politician. He actually built a business.

Those tax returns that were -- that came out publicly this week show that he faced some pretty tough times 20 years ago. But like virtually every other business, including the New York Times not too long ago, he used what's called net operating loss. We have a tax code, Senator, that actually is designed to encourage entrepreneurship in this country.

KAINE: But why won't he release his tax returns?

PENCE: Well, we're answering the question about -- about a business thing, is he...

KAINE: I do want to come back to that, but...

PENCE: His tax returns -- his tax returns showed he went through a very difficult time, but he used the tax code just the way it's supposed to be used. And he did it brilliantly. KAINE: How do you know that? You haven't seen his tax returns.

PENCE: He created a runway -- because he's created a business that's worth billions of dollars today.

KAINE: How do you know that?

PENCE: And with regard to paying taxes, this whole riff about not paying taxes and people saying he didn't pay taxes for years, Donald Trump has created tens of thousands of jobs. And he's paid payroll taxes, sales taxes, property taxes...

KAINE: Elaine, let me talk about something.

QUIJANO: Senator, I'm going to give you about 30 seconds to respond, and I have question on Social Security for you.


PENCE: The only issue on taxes -- Hillary Clinton is going to raise taxes, and Donald Trump and I are going to cut them.

KAINE: Donald Trump started this campaign in 2014 and he said, "If I run for president, I will absolutely release my taxes." He's broken his first...

PENCE: And he will.

KAINE: He's broken his first promise. Second, he stood on the stage...

PENCE: He hasn't broken his promise. He said he's...

KAINE: He stood on the stage last week and when Hillary said, you haven't been paying taxes, he said, "That makes me smart." So it's smart not to pay for our military? It's smart not to pay for veterans? It's smart not to pay for teachers? And I guess all of us who do pay for those things, I guess we're stupid. And the last thing I'll say is this...

PENCE: Senator, do you take all the deductions that you're entitled to?

KAINE: The last thing -- the last thing I want to ask Governor Pence is...

PENCE: I do.

KAINE: Governor Pence had to give Donald Trump his tax returns to show he was qualified to be vice president. Donald Trump must give the American public his tax returns to show that he's qualified to be president. And he's breaking his promise.

PENCE: Elaine, I have to respond to this.

QUIJANO: You get very little time, 20 seconds.

PENCE: I'll be -- I'll be very respectful.

QUIJANO: Governor?

PENCE: Look, Donald Trump has filed over 100 pages of financial disclosure, which is what the law requires.

KAINE: But he said he would release his tax returns.

QUIJANO: All right, Gentlemen...

PENCE: The American people can review that. And he's going -- Senator, he's going to release his tax returns when the audit is over...

QUIJANO: ... I need to ask you about Social Security...

KAINE: Richard Nixon released tax returns when he was under audit.

PENCE: They're going to raise your taxes. We're going to cut your taxes.

QUIJANO: Gentlemen...

KAINE: If you can't meet Nixon's standard...

QUIJANO: The people at home cannot understand either one of you when you speak over each other. I would please ask you to wait until it is that the other is finished.

KAINE: All right. We're having fun up here.

QUIJANO: Senator Kaine, on the issue of Social Security, in 18 years, when the Social Security Trust Funds run out of money, you'll be 76. The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget estimates your benefits could be cut by as much as $7,500 per year. What would your administration do to prevent this cut?

KAINE: First, we're going to protect Social Security, which is one of the greatest programs that the American government has ever done. It happened at a time when you would work your whole life, your whole life, raising your kids, working, being a Little League coach or a Sunday school teacher, and then you would retire into poverty. And Social Security has enabled people to retire with dignity and overwhelmingly not be in poverty.

We have to keep it solvent. And we will keep it solvent. And we'll look for strategies like adjusting the payroll tax cap upward in order to do that.

Here's what Hillary and I will not do. And I want to make this very plain. We will never, ever engage in a risky scheme to privatize Social Security. Donald Trump wrote a book and he said Social Security is a Ponzi scheme and privatization would be good for all of us.

And when Congressman Pence was in Congress, he was the chief cheerleader for the privatization of Social Security. Even after President Bush stopped pushing for it, Congressman Pence kept pushing for it. We're going to stand up against efforts to privatize Social Security. And we'll look for ways to keep it solvent going forward, focusing primarily on the payroll tax cap.

QUIJANO: Governor Pence, I'll give you an opportunity to respond.

PENCE: Well, thanks, Elaine. There they go again. OK...

KAINE: Go read -- go read the book.

PENCE: All Donald Trump -- all Donald Trump and I have said about Social Security is we're going to meet our obligations to our seniors. That's it.

KAINE: Go read the book.

PENCE: We've said we're going to meet the obligations of Medicare. That's what this campaign is really about, Senator. And I get, this is -- this is the old scare tactic that they roll out...

KAINE: But -- but you have a voting record, Governor.

PENCE: And I get all of that. I just, look...


PENCE: There's a question that you asked a little bit earlier that I want to go back to.

KAINE: I can't believe that you won't defend your own voting record.

PENCE: I have to go back to.


PENCE: Well, look, I -- you're running with Hillary Clinton, who wants to raise taxes by $1 trillion, increase spending by $2 trillion, and you say you're going to keep the promises of Social Security. Donald Trump and I are going to cut taxes. We're going to -- we're going to -- we're going to...

KAINE: You're not going to cut taxes. You're going to raise taxes on the middle class.

PENCE: ... reform government programs so we can meet the obligations of Social Security and Medicare.

QUIJANO: All right. PENCE: Stay on the path that your party has us on, we're going to be in a -- in a mountain range of debt. And we're going to face hard choices and...


QUIJANO: Gentleman, I want to move on now.

KAINE: You did ask this question about debt, and the debt explosion on the Trump plan is much, much bigger than anything on the Clinton side.

QUIJANO: All right. Let me move on now...

PENCE: Three hundred and five (ph) economists said your plan is bad for the economy.

QUIJANO: ... to the issue of law enforcement and race relations. Law enforcement and race relations. After the Dallas police shooting, Police Chief David Brown said, quote, "We're asking cops to do too much in this country. Every societal failure we put it off on the cops to solve. Not enough mental health funding, not enough drug addiction funding, schools fail, let's give it to the cops."

Do we ask too much of police officers in this country? And how would you specifically address the chief's concerns? Senator Kaine?

KAINE: Elaine, I think that's a very fair comment. I think we put a lot on police shoulders. And this is something I got a lot of scar tissue and experience on.

I was a city councilman and mayor in Richmond. And when I came in, we had one of the highest homicide rates in the United States. We fought very, very hard over the course of my time in local office with our police department, and we reduced our homicide rate nearly in half.

And then when I was governor of Virginia, we worked hard, too. And we did something we had really wanted to do. For the first time ever, we cracked the top 10, 10 safest states, because we worked together.

Here's what I learned as a mayor and a governor. The way you make communities safer and the way you make police safer is through community policing. You build the bonds between the community and the police force, build bonds of understanding, and then when people feel comfortable in their communities, that gap between the police and the communities they serve narrows. And when that gap narrows, it's safer for the communities and it's safer for the police.

That model still works across our country, but there are some other models that don't work, an overly aggressive, more militarized model. Donald Trump recently said we need to do more stop-and-frisk around the country. That would be a big mistake because it polarizes the relationship between the police and the community.

So here's what we'll do. We'll focus on community policing. We will focus on -- and Hillary Clinton has rolled out a really comprehensive mental health reform package that she worked on with law enforcement professionals, and we will also fight the scourge of gun violence in the United States.

I'm a gun-owner. I'm a strong Second Amendment supporter. But I've got a lot of scar tissue, because when I was governor of Virginia, there was a horrible shooting at Virginia Tech, and we learned that through that painful situation that gaps in the background record check system should have been closed and it could have prevented that crime, and so we're going to work to do things like close background record checks. And if we do, we won't have the tragedies that we did.

One of those killed at Virginia Tech was a guy named Liviu Librescu. He was a 70-plus-year-old Romanian Holocaust survivor. He had survived the Holocaust. Then he survived the Soviet Union takeover of his country. But then he was a visiting professor at Virginia Tech, and he couldn't survive the scourge of gun violence.

We can support the Second Amendment and do things like background record checks and make us safer, and that will make police safer, too.

QUIJANO: Governor Pence?

PENCE: You know, my uncle was a cop, a career cop, on the beat in downtown Chicago. He was my hero when I was growing up. And we'd go up to visit my dad's family in Chicago. My three brothers and I would marvel at my uncle when he would come out in his uniform, sidearm at his side.

Police officers are the best of us. And the men and women, white, African-American, Asian, Latino, Hispanic, they put their lives on the line every single day. And let my say, at the risk of agreeing with you, community policing is a great idea. It's worked in the Hoosier state. And we fully support that.

Donald Trump and I are going to make sure that law enforcement have the resources and the tools to be able to really restore law and order to the cities and communities in this nation. It's probably -- probably why the 330,000 members of the Fraternal Order of Police endorsed Donald Trump as the next president of the United States of America, because they see his commitment to them. They see his commitment to law and order.

But they also -- they also hear the bad mouthing, the bad mouthing that comes from people that seize upon tragedy in the wake of police action shootings as -- as a reason to -- to use a broad brush to accuse law enforcement of -- of implicit bias or institutional racism. And that really has got to stop.

I mean, when an African-American police officer in Charlotte named Brentley Vinson, an all-star football player who went to Liberty University here in the state, came home, followed his dad into law enforcement, joined the force in Charlotte, joined the force in Charlotte in 2014, was involved in a police action shooting that claimed the life of Keith -- Keith Lamont Scott, it was a tragedy. I mean, I -- we -- we mourn with those who mourn. We -- we grieve with those who grieve. And we're saddened at the loss of life.

But Hillary Clinton actually referred to that moment as an example of implicit bias in the police force, where -- where she used -- when she was asked in the debate a week ago whether there was implicit bias in law enforcement, her only answer was that there's implicit bias in everyone in the United States. I just think...

KAINE: Can I -- can I explain...

PENCE: ... I just think what we ought to do is we ought to stop seizing on these moments of tragedy. We ought to assure the public that we'll have a full and complete and transparent investigation whenever there's a loss of life because of police action. But, Senator, please, you know, enough of this seeking every opportunity to demean law enforcement broadly by making the accusation of implicit bias every time tragedy occurs.

KAINE: Elaine -- Elaine, people shouldn't be afraid to bring up issues of bias in law enforcement. And if you're afraid to have...

PENCE: I'm not afraid to bring that up.

KAINE: And if -- if you're afraid to have the discussion, you'll never solve it. And so here's -- here's an example, heartbreaking. We would agree this was a heartbreaking example.

The guy, Philando Castile, who was killed in St. Paul, he was a worker, a valued worker in a local school. And he was killed for no apparent reason in an incident that will be discussed and will be investigated.

But when folks went and explored this situation, what they found is that Philando Castile, who was a -- they called him Mr. Rogers with Dreadlocks in the school that he worked. The kids loved him. But he had been stopped by police 40 or 50 times before that fatal incident. And if you look at sentencing in this country, African-Americans and Latinos get sentenced for the same crimes at very different rates.

PENCE: We need criminal justice reform.

KAINE: Well, we do.

PENCE: Indiana has passed criminal justice reform.

KAINE: But I just want to say, those who say that we should not...

PENCE: But that's not what you're talking about.

KAINE: ... we should not be able to bring up and talk about bias in the system, we'll never solve the problem...

QUIJANO: Governor Pence...


QUIJANO: Governor Pence...

PENCE: Senator, when African-American police officers involved in a police action shooting involving an African-American, why would Hillary Clinton accuse that African-American police officer of implicit bias?

KAINE: Well, I guess I can't believe you are defending the position that there is no bias and it's a topic we don't even...


QUIJANO: Governor Pence, I have a question on that point.

PENCE: I did not make that statement. I...

QUIJANO: Your fellow Republican, Governor Pence, Senator Tim Scott, who is African-American, recently spoke on the Senate floor. He said he was stopped seven times by law enforcement in one year.

KAINE: A U.S. senator.

QUIJANO: He said, "I have felt the anger, the frustration, the sadness, and the humiliation that comes with feeling like you're being targeted for nothing more than being just yourself." What would you say to Senator Scott about his experiences?

PENCE: Well, I have the deepest respect for Senator Scott, and he's a close friend. And what I would say is that we -- we need to adopt criminal justice reform nationally. I -- I signed criminal justice reform in the state of Indiana, Senator, and we're very proud of it.

I worked when I was Congress on a second chance act. We have got to do a better job recognizing and correcting the errors in the system that do reflect on institutional bias in criminal justice. But what -- what -- what Donald Trump and I are saying is let's not have the reflex of assuming the worst of men and women in law enforcement. We truly do believe that law enforcement is not a force for racism or division in our country...

KAINE: Elaine, can I...

QUIJANO: So what would you say to Senator Scott, Governor?

PENCE: Law enforcement in this country is a force for good. They are the -- they truly are people that put their lives on the line every single day. But I would -- I would suggest to you, what we need to do is assert a stronger leadership at the national level to support law enforcement. You just heard Senator Kaine reject stop-and-frisk. Well, I would suggest to you that the families that live in our inner cities that are besieged by crime...

KAINE: Elaine, let me -- let me...

QUIJANO: Governor, the question is about Senator Scott. What would -- what would you tell Senator Scott?

KAINE: Elaine, if I could -- if I could jump in. I've heard Senator Scott make that eloquent plea. And look, criminal justice is about respecting the law and being respected by the law. So there is a fundamental respect issue here.

And I just want to talk about the tone that's set from the top. Donald Trump during his campaign has called Mexicans rapists and criminals. He's called women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting. I don't like saying that in front of my wife and my mother. He attacked an Indiana-born federal judge and said he was unqualified to hear a federal lawsuit because his parents were Mexican. He went after John McCain, a POW, and said he wasn't hero because he'd been captured. He said African-Americans are living in Hell. And he perpetrated this outrageous and bigoted lie that President Obama is not a U.S. citizen.

If you want to have a society where people are respected and respect laws, you can't have somebody at the top who demeans every group that he talks about. And I just -- again, I cannot believe that Governor Pence will defend the insult-driven campaign that Donald Trump has run.

QUIJANO: All right. I want to turn to our next segment now, immigration. Your running mates have both said that undocumented immigrants who have committed violent crimes should be deported. What would you tell the millions of undocumented immigrants who have not committed violent crimes? Governor Pence?

PENCE: Donald Trump's laid out a plan to end illegal immigration once and for all in this country. We've been talking it to death for 20 years. Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine want to continue the policies of open borders, amnesty, catch and release, sanctuary cities, all the things that are driving -- that are driving wages down in this country, Senator, and also too often with criminal aliens in the country, it's bringing heartbreak.

But I -- Donald Trump has a plan that he laid out in Arizona, that will deal systemically with illegal immigration, beginning with border security, internal enforcement. It's probably why for the first time in the history of Immigration and Customs Enforcement their union actually endorsed Donald Trump as the next president of the United States, because they know they need help to enforce the laws of this country.

And Donald Trump has laid out a priority to remove criminal aliens, remove people that have overstayed their visas. And -- and once we have accomplished all of that, which will -- which will strengthen our economy, strengthen the rule of law in the country and make our communities safer once the criminal aliens are out, then we'll deal with those that remain.

But I have to tell you, I just -- I was listening to the avalanche of insults coming out of Senator Kaine a minute ago. KAINE: These were Donald's -- hold on a second, Governor.


PENCE: It's my time, Senator.

QUIJANO: It is, in fact, the governor's time.

KAINE: I apologize. It's your two minutes. I apologize.

PENCE: Thanks. I forgive you. He says ours is an insult-driven campaign. Did you all just hear that? Ours is an insult-driven campaign?

I mean, to be honest with you, if Donald Trump had said all of the things that you've said he said in the way you said he said them, he still wouldn't have a fraction of the insults that Hillary Clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of deplorables. It's -- she said they were irredeemable, they were not American.

I mean, it's extraordinary. And then she labeled one after another "ism" on millions of Americans who believe that we can have a stronger America at home and abroad, who believe we can get this economy moving again, who believe that we can end illegal immigration once and for all. So, Senator, this -- this insult-driven campaign, I mean...

QUIJANO: Governor...

PENCE: That's small potatoes compared to Hillary Clinton...

QUIJANO: Senator Kaine?

PENCE: .... calling half of Donald Trump's supporters a basket of deplorables.

KAINE: Hillary Clinton said something on the campaign trail, and the very next day, she said, you know what, I shouldn't have said that.

PENCE: She said she shouldn't have said half.

QUIJANO: Governor, this is Senator Kaine's two minutes, please.

KAINE: Yeah, that's right, so now we're even.

PENCE: Yeah.


KAINE: Look for Donald trump apologizing to John McCain for saying he wasn't a hero...

PENCE: Oh...

KAINE: ... to Donald Trump apologizing for calling women slobs, pigs, dogs, disgusting.

PENCE: She apologized for saying "half."

QUIJANO: Governor. It is his two minutes, please.

KAINE: Did Donald Trump apologize for taking after somebody in a Twitter war and making fun of her weight? Did he apologize for saying African-Americans are living in Hell? Did he apologize for saying President Obama was not even a citizen of the United States? You will look in vain to see Donald Trump ever taking responsibility for anybody and apologizing.

Immigration. There's two plans on the table. Hillary and I believe in comprehensive immigration reform. Donald Trump believes in deportation nation. You've got to pick your choice. Hillary and I want a bipartisan reform that will put keeping families together as the top goal, second, that will help focus enforcement efforts on those who are violent, third, that will do more border control, and, fourth, that will provide a path to citizenship for those who work hard, pay taxes, play by the rules, and take criminal background record checks.

That's our proposal. Donald Trump proposes to deport 16 million people, 11 million who are here without documents. And both Donald Trump and Mike Pence want to get rid of birthright citizenship. So if you're born here, but your parents don't have documents, they want to eliminate that. That's another 4.5 million people.

These guys -- and Donald Trump have said it -- deportation force. They want to go house to house, school to school, business to business, and kick out 16 million people. And I cannot believe...

PENCE: That's nonsense. That's nonsense.

KAINE: I cannot believe that Governor Pence would sit here and defend his running mate's claim that we should create a deportation force to -- so that they'll all be gone.

PENCE: Senator, we have a deportation force. It's called Immigrations and Customs Enforcement. And the union for Immigrations and Customs Enforcement for the first time in their history endorsed Donald Trump to be the next president of the United States of America.

KAINE: So you like the 16 million deportations?

PENCE: Senator, that's -- that's nonsense. Look, what you just heard is they have a plan for open borders, amnesty. That's...


KAINE: Our plan is like Ronald Reagan's plan from 1986.

PENCE: They call it comprehensive immigration reform -- they call it comprehensive immigration reform on Capitol Hill. We all know the routine. It's amnesty. And you heard one of the last things he mentioned was border security.

PENCE: That's how Washington always plays it.

KAINE: No, I...

PENCE: They always say we're going to do this, we're going to do that, we'll eventually get the border...


KAINE: ... border security three years ago, and Governor Pence was against it.

QUIJANO: Governor, Mr. Trump has said...

PENCE: Ronald Reagan said a nation without borders is not a nation. Donald Trump is committed to restoring the borders of this nation and securing our nation, enforcing our laws.

QUIJANO: So, Governor, how would these millions of undocumented immigrants leave? Would they be forcibly removed?

PENCE: It begins with border security. After we secure the border, not only build a wall, but beneath the ground and in the air, we do internal enforcement. The focus has to be on criminal aliens. We just had a conversation about law enforcement, a conversation about the violence that is the setting our cities. The reality is, there is heartbreaking tragedy that has struck American families because people who came into this country illegally are now involved in criminal and reprise and activity, and we do not have the resources or the will to deport them systematically.

Donald Trump said we are going to move those people out. People have overstayed their Visas. We are going to enforce the law of this country and strengthen immigration and customs enforcement with more resources and personnel to be able to do that, and then Donald Trump has made it clear. Once we have done all of those things, then we are going to reform the immigration system that we have in this country.

KAINE: I have to —

PENCE: That is the order you should do it. Border security, removing criminal aliens, upholding the law, and then, senator, I will work with you. We will work to reform the immigration —

KAINE: I look forward to working together in whatever capacity as we serve him. I want to make it clear that he is trying to change with Donald Trump has said. Donald Trump said that we are building a wall and we are deporting everybody. He said, "They will all be gone."

This is one of these ones where you can go to the tape on it and see what Donald Trump has said. And to add to it, we are a nation of immigrants. Mike Pence and I are both dissented from immigrant families. Some things, maybe worth a read about the Irish when we came in, but we absorbed, and made our nation stronger. When Donald Trump said Mexicans are rapists and criminals, he said the judge was unqualified to hear a case because his parents were Mexican. I cannot imagine how you could defend that.

QUIJANO: Gentlemen, I would like to shift to the threat of terrorism. Do you think the will today is a safer and more dangerous place than it was eight years ago? Has the terrorist threat increased or decreased.

KAINE: It has decreased in some ways because bin Laden is dead, because an Iranian nuclear weapons program hasn't been stopped. There is not 175,000 in a dangerous part of the world, only 15,000, that there are other parts of the world that are challenging.

To beat terrorism, there is only one candidate who can do it, and it is Hillary Clinton. She was a senator from New York on 9/11, at the World Trade Center when they were searching for victims and survivors. That seared onto her the need — she was part of the national security team that wiped out bin Laden. Here is her plan to defeat ISIL. They have to take out their leaders on the battlefield. She will lead the team that will get the head of ISIS. We have got to disrupt the financing networks.

Third, disrupt their ability to recruit on the internet, in their state havens. Fourth, we also have to work with allies to share intelligence. That is the Hillary Clinton plan. Donald Trump cannot start a Twitter war with Miss Universe without shooting himself in the foot. He does not have a plan. He said "I have a secret plan," and then he said, "I know more than all the generals about ISIL," and finally he said "I am going to fire all the generals." He does not have a plan.

He trash talks the military: John McCain is no hero, the generals need to be fired, I know more than them. He wants to end alliances: NATO is obsolete and third, he loves dictators. He has a personal Mount Rushmore of Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un, and Saddam Hussein. He believes, Donald Trump believes that the world will be safer if more nations have nuclear weapons. He said Saudi Arabia should get them, Japan should get them, and corporate jet should get them. When he was confronted with this, and told — and Korea should get them.

When he was confronted with this, he said "Go ahead, folks, enjoy yourselves." I would like Governor Pence atomic what is so enjoyable work comical about nuclear war.

PENCE: That had a lot of creative lines in it.

KAINE: See if you can defend any of it?

PENCE: I can make it clear to the American people, after traveling millions of miles as our secretary of state after being the architect of the foreign policy of this administration, America is less safe today that it was the day that Barack Obama became President of the United States. It is absolutely inarguable. He weakened America's place in the world. It is a lack of leadership. I will give you that. I was in Washington, D.C., on 9/11. I saw the clouds of smoke rise from the Pentagon.

KAINE: I was in Virginia.

PENCE: I know you were. We lived through that day as a nation. It was heartbreaking. I want to give this president, for bringing Osama bin Laden to justice, but the truth is, he led Al Qaeda. The primary threat today is ISIS. Because Hillary Clinton failed to renegotiate a forces agreement that would have allowed some American combat troops to remain in Iraq and secure the hard-fought gains that the American soldier has won, ISIS was able to be literally conjured up out of the desert and it has overrun vast areas. My heart breaks for the likes of Corporal Lebowski. He fought hard, through some of the most difficult days of Operation Iraqi Freedom, and paid the ultimate sacrifice to secure the nation. That nation was secured in 2009.

Because Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama failed to provide a status of forces agreement and leave sufficient forces, we are back at war. We are back at war in Iraq and — I tell her we're never going to forget her son.The sacrifices the American soldier made squandered in Iraq because this administration created a vacuum in which ISIS was able to grow. The deal that Clinton initiated, $150 billion --

KAINE: Without firing a shot.

PENCE: It did not stop the —

KAINE: Yes, it did.

PENCE: It guaranteed that someday, Iran would become a power.

QUIJANO: Mr. Trump has proposed extreme vetting, but that does not address many of the recent terrorist attacks in the united States such as the Orlando night club massacre. Those were homegrown. What specific tools would you use to prevent those kinds of attacks?

PENCE: I think it is a great question, Elaine. It really does begin with us reforming our immigration system and putting the interest, particularly in the safety and security of the American people, first. Donald Trump wants extreme vetting for people coming in. Donald Trump and I are committed to suspending the Syrian refugee program and programs in immigration around the world that have been compromised by terrorism. Hillary Clinton wants to increase it.

KAINE: As opposed to violating the constitution by blocking people from coming in based on their nationality, we have different views on refugee issues and immigration. Hillary and I want to do enforcement based on "Our people dangerous?" These guys say "All Mexicans are bad." With regard to refugees, we want to keep people out of they are dangerous. Donald Trump said "Keep them out if they are Muslim." An appellate court with three public and judges struck down a pence plan and said it was this majority. It was discriminatory.

PENCE: There is not evidence that ISIS had infiltrated the United States. Germany just arrested three Syrian refugees.

KAINE: They told you there is a right way and a wrong way to do it.

PENCE: If you're going to be critical of me, that is fair game. After two Syrian refugees were involved in the attack in Paris that is called "Paris' 9/11," you bet I suspended that program. I stand by that decision. If I am vice president, we're going to put the safety of the American people first.

KAINE: Hillary and I will do immigration enforcement and vet refugees based on whether they are dangerous or not, not discriminating based on which country you are from.

PENCE: The director of the FBI said we cannot know for certain who these people coming are.

KAINE: If we do not know, we do not let them in.

PENCE: If the FBI and Homeland Security said we cannot know for certain, you have got to err on the side of the safety of the American people.

PENCE: If the FBI and Homeland Security said we cannot know for certain, you have got to err on the side of the safety of the American people.

KAINE: By trashing all Muslims?

QUIJANO: We have got to talk about the intelligence surge. What would that look like and how would that help identify terrorists with no operational connection to a foreign terrorist organization?

KAINE: It is expanding our intelligence positives by hiring professionals, but also, we have got some of the best intel and cyber employees. It involves increasing our own force, but striking great partnerships with some of our cyber and Intel experts in the private sector so that we can be consistent with constitutional principles, gather more intelligence. It means making stronger alliances. You share intelligence back and forth with allies, and that is how you find out who may be trying to recruit, who may be trying to come from one country to the next.

Alliances are critical. That is why Donald Trump's claim that NATO is obsolete — look, if you push aside your alliances, who are you going to share intelligence with? Hillary Clinton knows how to build alliances. That is what an intelligence surge means, better skill and prosody, but a better alliance.

QUIJANO: I would like to talk about Syria.

PENCE: I would like to talk about the issue.

QUIJANO: 30 seconds.

PENCE: Donald Trump just spoke about the issue this week. We have got to bring together the best resources in this country to understand that cyber warfare is the new warfare of the asymmetrical enemies we face in this country, and I look forward if I am privileged to be in this role of working with you in the senate, to make sure we resource that effort.

We have an intelligence surge. I will also tell you that it's important in this moment to remember that Hillary Clinton had a private server in her home that had classified information on it about drone strikes, e-mails from the president of the United States of America were on there, her private server was subject to being hacked by foreign —

QUIJANO: I would like to ask you about Syria. You have had a minute.

KAINE: The investigation concluded that not one reasonable prosecutor would take any additional steps. You do not get to decide that the rights and wrongs of this. We have a justice system that does that. A Republican FBI director director did an investigation and concluded --

QUIJANO: We are moving on now. 100,000 children — governor.

PENCE: That is absolutely false.

KAINE: They did an investigation. They concluded there was no reasonable prosecutor who would take it further.

QUIJANO: Senator Kaine, Governor Pence, please. I want to turn now to Syria. One hundred-thousand children are under siege in Aleppo, Syria. Bonds, cluster munitions, incendiary weapons are being dropped on them by Russian and Syrian military's. Does the US have a responsibility to protect civilians and prevent mass casualties on this scale? Governor Pence.

PENCE: The United States of America needs to begin to exercise strong leadership to protect the vulnerable citizens in over 100,000 children in Aleppo. Hillary Clinton's top priority when she became secretary of state was the Russian reset. After the Russian reset, the Russians invaded Ukraine and took over Crimea. The small and bullying the leader of Russia is now dictating terms to the United States to the point where all the United States of America, the greatest nation on Earth, just withdraws from talk about a cease-fire while that a mere Putin puts a missile defense in Syria while he marshaled the forces and begins — look, we have got to lean into this with strong, broad-shouldered American leadership that begins by rebuilding our military.

The Russians and Chinese have been making enormous investments in the military. We have the smallest maybe since 1916. We have the lowest number of troops since the second world War. We have got to work with the congress and Donald Trump to rebuild our military and project American strength in the world. About Aleppo and Syria, I truly do believe that what America ought to do is immediately establish Safe Zones so that families with children can move out of those areas, work with our Arab partners real-time, right now to make that happen. The provocations by Russia need to be met by American strength. If Russia continues to be involved in this barbaric attack on civilians in Aleppo, the US needs to be prepared to strike military targets of the Assad regime, to prevent them from this humanitarian crisis taking place in Aleppo.

There is a broad range of other things we ought to do as well. We should deploy a missile defense shield to the Czech Republic and Poland, which had Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama pulled back on. We have to have American strength on the world stage. When Donald Trump becomes president, the Russians and other countries in the world will know they are dealing with a strong American president.

QUIJANO: Senator?

KAINE: Consistent with the UN Security Council resolution passed would be a good idea. Hillary Clinton has the way to stand up to Russia. Donald Trump again and again has praised Vladimir Putin.

It is clear she has business dealings with Russia and is very connected to Putin. The trump campaign management team had to be fired a month or so ago because of those shadowy connections.

Governor Pence made the odd claim, he said, and arguably, Vladimir Putin is a better leader than president Obama. Vladimir Putin has run his economy into the ground and he persecutors LGBT folks. If you don't of the difference between dictatorship and leadership, then you got to go back to a fifth grade civics class. That offends me.

PENCE: That offended me.

KAINE: Governor Pence just said Donald Trump will rebuild the military. No he won't. Donald Trump is avoiding paying taxes. The "New York Times" story suggested he did not pay taxes for 18 years, starting in 1995. Those years included the year of 9/11.

On 9/11, Hillary Clinton's and Donald Trump's hometown was attacked. Young men and women signed up to fight terrorism. Hillary Clinton went to Washington to get funds to rebuild her city and protect first responders, but Donald Trump was fighting a different fight, a fight to avoid paying taxes so he would not support the fight against terror, he would not support troops. This is important, Elaine.

When a guy running for president will not support the troops, not support veterans, not support teachers, that is really important. And I said about Aleppo, we do agree to a humanitarian zone in northern Syria.

QUIJANO: Governor Pence, you had mentioned a no fly zone. Specifically, how would you keep this safe zone safe?

PENCE: First of all, Donald Trump supports troops and our veterans.

KAINE: He will not pay taxes.

QUIJANO: Gentlemen —

KAINE: This is about our troops.

PENCE: I understand why you want to change the subject and let me be clear on this Russians thing. What we are dealing with is — there is an old proverb that says the Russian bear never dies, but hibernates. This foreign policy from Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama has awakened a Russian aggression that first appeared a few years ago with their move into Georgia and crimea and into the wider Middle East. All we do now is full of our arms and say, "We are not having talks anymore." We need to marshal the resources of our allies in the region and end the immediate — we need to act and act now to get people out of harm's way.

QUIJANO: Exactly how would those safe zones work?

PENCE: The safe zones would have to be, as the senator said, there is a framework that has been recognized by the international community, but the United States needs to be prepared to work with others in the region to create a route for safe passage, and to protect people in those areas, including with a no-fly zone. I served on the foreign affairs committee for a decade. To see the weak and feckless leadership that Hillary Clinton was the architect of.

KAINE: Let me come back to talk about — he does not want to acknowledge that we stopped the Iranian nuclear weapons program. He does not want to acknowledge that Taylor was part of the team that got Osama bin Laden.

Big knowledge that Hillary was part of the team that got Osama bin Laden. Ronald Reagan said something interesting about proliferation in the 1980's. He said the problem with nuclear proliferation is some maniac could trigger a catastrophic event and I think that is who Governor Pence's running mate is.

PENCE: Senator, that was even beneath you and Hillary Clinton. That was pretty low. Ronald Reagan also said nuclear wars should never be fought because it could never be won, and the United States of America needs to make advancements in modernizing. But let me go back to this Iran thing. You keep saying that Hillary Clinton started the deal with the Iranians, prevented them from getting a nuclear weapon. That is not what Israel thinks.

KAINE: You can go check.

PENCE: I know you boycotted Prime Minister Netanyahu's speech. When I was in congress, I fought hard on a bipartisan basis with Republican and Democrat members to move forward the topic sanctions literally in the history of the United States.

KAINE: And Hillary Clinton used them.

PENCE: Other goal was always that we would only lift the sanctions if Iran terminally renounced their nuclear ambitions. They have not done so. And when the deal's period runs out, there is no limitation on weapons. $1.7 billion was used in a ransom payment.

KAINE: Six times tonight I have said to Governor Pence, I cannot defend how you would defend your running mate's position. And in all six cases, he has refused to defend. And yet, he is asking everybody to vote for somebody he cannot defend.

QUIJANO: Senator. I will give you an opportunity to do that.

KAINE: More nations should get nuclear weapons, try to defend that.

PENCE: He never said that.

QUIJANO: Gentlemen, Russia. Russian President Vladimir Putin invaded Ukraine and Crimea and provided crucial military support to the Assad regime. Senator Kaine?

KAINE: Let's start with not praising Vladimir Putin as a great leader. Donald Trump and Mike Pence has said he is a great leader. He has business dealings with Russia that he refuses to disclose. Hillary Clinton has gone toe to toe with Russia. She did so as secretary of state with the new start agreement to reduce Russia's nuclear stockpile.

She went toe-to-toe with Russia and launched protests when they went into Georgia. And we have done the same thing with Ukraine, but we put punishing economic sanctions on Russia that we need to continue. Donald Trump, on the other hand, did not know Russia had invaded Crimea. He was on a television show a couple months back and said, "I guarantee you this, Russia is not going into the Ukraine." He had to be reminded that they had gone into Crimea a few years before. Hillary Clinton has gone toe-to-toe with Russia and got them engaged in a meaningful way to cap Iran's nuclear weapons program and yet, she stood up to them on issues such as Syria and the invasion of Georgia. You have got to have the ability to do that and Hillary does.

On the other hand, in Donald Trump you have somebody who praises Vladimir Putin all the time. America should really wonder about Donald Trump, who has ties to Vladimir Putin, who had to be fired for that reason. When Donald Trump sits down with Vladimir Putin, is it going to be America's bottom line or Donald Trump's bottom line with his business dealings. This could be solved if Donald Trump was willing to release his tax returns. And I know he is laughing at this.

PENCE: What has that got to do with Russia? Sen. Kaine: Every president since Nixon has done it.

QUIJANO: Senator, your time is up. Governor.

PENCE: Well, thanks. I'm just trying to keep up with the insult driven campaign on the other side.

KAINE: I am just saying facts about your running mate.

PENCE: Don't put words in my mouth. Most of what you said is completely false and the American people know that.

PENCE: This is the alternative universe of Washington DC, versus reality. Hillary Clinton — her number one priority was a reset of Russia. That resulted in the infiltration of Ukraine. They moved all the way into Crimea and took over the Crimean peninsula. Donald Trump was basically said, it is not going to happen again. The truth of the matter is, what you have in the rise of aggressive Russia, which has increased its influence in Iran, it is not because of this deal, is on a pathway in the feature to obtain a nuclear — the leading state sponsor of terror in the world in Iran now has a closer working relationship with Russia because of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama's foreign policy and $150 billion and sanctions being lifted and then of course, Syria. It is extraordinary. Syria is imploding.

You just asked about the disaster in Aleppo. ISIS is headquartered from raqqa. From there, they have overwhelmed vast areas. Yet, senator Kaine still sits here and says that the foreign policy of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama somehow made the world more secure. It really is astonishing. The day Iran released four Americans we delivered $400 million in cash as a ransom payment for Americans held in Tehran.

QUIJANO: "Putin has no respect for Hillary Clinton and no respect for Obama." Why do you think he will respect a Trump-Pence administration? Why the you think he will respect a trump-pence administration?

PENCE: Strength. We are going to rebuild our military. This whole Putin thing, look, America is stronger than Russia. Our economy is 16 times larger than the Russian economy. Our political system is superior to the corrupt capital system in Russia it every way.

When Donald Trump and I observed in Syria and Iran and Ukraine that the bullying leader of Russia has been stronger on the world stage than this administration is stating facts. That is not an endorsement of Putin.

KAINE: This is one where we can go to the table on. Governor pence said, and arguably, Vladimir Putin is a better leader than president Obama.

PENCE: That is absolutely inaccurate. He has been stronger on the world stage.

QUIJANO: No, you said leader. And I will say this, governor. If you mistake leadership for dictatorship and can't tell a difference —

PENCE: This is the grade school thing again.

KAINE: If you can't tell the difference, you should not be commander in chief. And Donald Trump's son says they have all these business dealings with Russia. America needs to worry about whether Donald Trump will be worrying about his own bottom line.

QUIJANO: What went on with the Russian reset?

KAINE: Vladimir Putin is a dictator. He is not a leader.

Anyone who thinks otherwise does not know Russian history and they doesn't know Vladimir Putin. Hillary Clinton knows exactly who this guy is. John McCain, I look at that guy and I see KGB. So, how do you deal with him? We do have to deal with Russia in many different ways. There are areas where we can cooperate.

It was Hillary Clinton who worked with Russia on the treaty to reduce their nuclear weapons stockpile. It was Hillary Clinton who worked with Russia to get them engaged in a community of nations to stop the Iranian nuclear weapons program without firing a shot. She is not going around praising Vladimir Putin as a great guy, but she knows how to sit down at a table and negotiate tough deals. This is a very challenging part of the world and we should have a commander in chief that is prepared, rather than somebody who goes around praising Vladimir Putin.

QUIJANO: I would like to ask about North Korea and the threat of nuclear weapons. North Korea just conducted its fifth and most powerful nuclear weapon test. How would you stop them from developing a nuclear weapon powerful enough from reaching the United States?

PENCE: We need to modernize our nuclear forces and we need an effective American diplomacy that will marshal the resources of nations in the Asian-Pacific rim to put pressure on north Korea, to abandon the nuclear ambitions. It has to remain the policy of the notice states of America, the demilitarization of the Korean peninsula.

When Donald Trump's president, we are not going to have the kind of posture in the world that has Russia invading Crimea and Ukraine, that has the Chinese building new islands in the South China Sea, that has literally the world, including North Korea, flouting American power. We will go back to the days of peace through strength. But I have to tell you, all of this talk about tax returns, and I get it, you want to keep bringing it up, but, Hillary Clinton and her husband set up a private foundation called the Clinton Foundation.

While she was secretary of state, the foundation accepted tens of millions of dollars from foreign governments and foreign donors now, you will need to know out there, this is basic stuff. For a donors and certainly, foreign governments cannot participate in the American political process. They cannot make financial contributions, but the Clintons figure out a way to create a foundation where foreign governments and for donors can donate millions of dollars.

And then we found, thanks to the good work of the Associated Press, that more than half of her private meetings when she was secretary of state were given to major donors of the Clinton Foundation. You talk about all these baseless rumors about Russia and the half rest, Hillary Clinton, you asked the trustworthy question at the very beginning.

QUIJANO: Senator —

PENCE: They are looking at the pay to play politics she operated within the Clinton Foundation. They are saying, enough is enough.

QUIJANO: Senator Kaine.

KAINE: I want to talk about the Foundation and then North Korea. I am glad to talk about the foundation. It is one of the highest rated charities in the world. It provides AIDS drugs to about 11.5 million people. It helps America deal with opioid overdoses and it gets higher rankings for its charity than the American Red Cross does. It does a lot of good work. Hillary Clinton as secretary of state took no action to benefit the Foundation. The State Department did an investigation and concluded that everything Hillary Clinton did as Secretary of State was in the interest of the United States.

So, the foundation does good work and Hillary Clinton as secretary of state acted in the interest of the United States. Now, let's compare that with the Trump Organization. The conflict of interest could only be known if Donald Trump would release his tax returns and he has refused to do it. His son has said the organization has a lot of business dealings in Russia. Remember, the Trump Organization is not a nonprofit.

It is putting money into his pocket and the pockets of his children, where the Clinton Foundation is a nonprofit and no Clinton [family member] draws any salary. In addition, Donald Trump has a foundation that was just fined for illegally contributing foundation dollars to a political campaign. They made an illegal contribution and tried to hide it. The person they donated it to was the person whose office was donating to Trump University. Clinton is doing work in the American interest.

QUIJANO: Governor, I will give you 30 seconds to respond because I know you want to, but I will remind you both, this is about North Korea. [Laughter]

PENCE: Thank you. The Trump Foundation is a private family foundation and they give virtually every cent to charitable causes.

KAINE: A $20,000 portrait of Donald Trump?

PENCE: It has been a platform for the Clintons to travel the world. But honestly, senator, we would know a lot more about it if Hillary Clinton would turn over that 33,000 e-mails.

QUIJANO: Senator Kaine. Senator Kaine, if you had intelligence that North Korea was about to launch a nuclear armed missile capable of reaching the United States, would you take preemptive action?

KAINE: A president should take action to defend the united States against imminent threats. Now, you would have to determine what your intelligence was, how certain you were about that intelligence, but you would have to take question. You asked the question of how we deal with North Korea. On the foreign relations committee we just did an extensive sanctions package against North Korea and interestingly enough, the UN did virtually the same package. Often China will use their veto on the security council for that. They are starting to get worried about North Korea as well. So, they supported be sanctions passage, even when many of the sanctions are against Chinese financial institutions.

So, we are working together with China and we need to. It is competitive and also challenging and we have to be able to cooperate against north Korea. Hillary understands that. She went famously to China and stood up at a human rights meeting and said, against north Korea. "Women's rights are human rights." She worked on many important diplomatic deals with China and that is what it will take. The thing I would worry about a little bit is Donald Trump owes about $650 million to banks, including the Bank of China. I am not sure he could stand up so tough to the people who have loaned him money.

QUIJANO: I would like to turn to our next segment and focus on a social issues. You have both been open about the role that states have played in your lives.

Can you express in detail a time that you have struggled to balance your personal faith and the public policy decision. Senator Kaine.

KAINE: That is an easy one for me. I grew up with a great Irish Catholic council. I was educated by Jesuits. I worked with Jesuit missionaries in Honduras now nearly 35 years ago and they were the heroes of my life. I tried it to practice my religion in a very devout way. But I don't believe in this nation, a First Amendment nation, where we don't raise any religion over the other, that the doctrines of any one religion should be mandated for everyone.

Having a struggle in my faith life was that the Catholic Church is against the death penalty and so am I. But I was the governor of the state, and the state says there was a death penalty. So, I had to grapple with that when I was running for governor and I was attacked pretty strongly because of my position. But, I looked the voters of Virginia in the eye, and said, I am not going to change my religious practice to get one vote, but I will uphold the law.

And I was elected and I did. It was very difficult to allow executions to go forth, but in certain situations where I did not believe there was a case for clemency, I told Virginia voters I would uphold the law and I did. It is difficult for those of us who have these faith lives, we don't feel we can just substitute our views.

QUIJANO: Governor Pence.

PENCE: Well, it is a wonderful question in my Christian faith is at the very heart of who I am. I was also raised in a wonderful family of faith. It was church on Sunday morning and grace before dinner. But my Christian faith became real for me when I made a personal decision for Christ when I was a freshman in college. I have tried to live that out, however imperfectly, every day of my life since. With my wife by my side we followed a calling into public service, where we tried to keep the faith with our values that we cherish.

And, which regard to when I struggled, I appreciate and I have a great deal of respect for Senator Kaine's sincere faith. That is shared. But for me, I would tell you for the sanctity of life proceeds out of that ancient principle of God. I tried to stand for the ancient principle of the sanctity of life. I am also very pleased that Indiana became the most-adoption state. But what I can’t understand is Hillary Clinton — how she can support a process like partial-birth abortion.

I know you hold pro-life views personally. At the very idea that a child almost born into the world could still have their life taken from them, I cannot in conscience [understand] a party that supports that. I know you have historically opposed taxpayer funding for abortion, but Hillary Clinton wants to repeal the long-standing provision when we said we would not use taxpayer dollars to fund abortion. For me, my faith informs my life. For me, it all begins with cherishing the dignity, the worth, the value of all human life.

KAINE: Elaine, this is a fundamental question. Hillary and I are both from religious backgrounds. Her Methodist church experience was very informative for her as a public servant. But we both feel you should live fully and with enthusiasm for your faith. But, let's talk about abortion and choice. We support Roe v. Wade. We support the constitutional right of American women to consult their own conscience and make their own decision about pregnancy. That is something we trust American women to do. And we don't think that women should be punished, as Donald Trump they showed, for making the decision to have an abortion. Governor Pence wants to repeal Roe v. Wade. He says he wants to put it on the trash heap of history. Before Roe v. Wade, states could punish women if they made the choice to abort a pregnancy.

I think you should live your moral values, but the last thing governments should do is to have laws that would punish women who make reproductive choices. That is the fundamental difference between the Clinton-Kaine ticket and the Trump-Pence ticket.

PENCE: It is really not. Donald Trump and I would never support legislation that would punish women who made the heartbreaking choice.

KAINE: Then, why did he say that?

PENCE: Look, he is not a polished politician like you and Hillary Clinton.

KAINE: There is a great line from the gospel. When Donald Trump says women should be punished, that Mexicans are rapists and criminals, he is showing you who he is.

PENCE: Senator, with that Mexican thing again. There are criminal aliens who have come into this country illegally, who are perpetrating violence. He also said, and many of them are good people. Sen. Kaine, You keep leaving them out of your quote. But there is a choice here, and it is a choice on life. I could not be more proud to be standing with Donald Trump, who is standing with the right to life. It is a principle that under can, and I very generous about this because it is a principle that you embrace.

I have appreciated the fact that you support the amendment that bans the use for taxpayer funding in the past. But that is not Hillary Clinton's view. We can come together as a nation. We know we are better for it.

Like Mother Teresa said at a famous prayer breakfast. There's so many families around the country who cannot have children. If we can improve so people who cannot have children can.

We can encourage people to support women. Why doesn't it Donald Trump trust women to make this choice for the themselves? Living our lives of faith with enthusiasm, convincing each other, dialoguing each other about important issues. Fundamental issues of morality, we should let women make their own choice.

Society can be judged by how it deals with its most vulnerable. The aged, the infirm. I cannot say it how happy I am to be standing with a pro-life candidate, Donald Trump.

QUIJANO: Senator Kaine, if your ticket wins, what are you going to do to unified the country?

KAINE: That may be the $64,000 question. Hillary is running a campaign about "Stronger together." And Donald Trump, this man except he cannot defend Donald Trump. We have to bring the country together. Here's what we will do. Hillary Clinton was Secretary of State, I served in the senate. I talked to Republican senators and I'm surprised by how well they respect Hillary Clinton. She was on the armed services committee. She worked across the aisle would you as first lady to get the CHIP program passed.

She worked across the aisle on 9/11 to get help benefits for the first responders who ran into the towers and Pentagon. She secured care for National Guard members, including for Hoosiers in the National Guard. She has a record of working across the aisle. As Governor of Virginia with two Republican houses, I have good relations across the aisle. It is fine to be a Democrat, Republican, or independent. After Election Day, the goal is to work together. Hillary Clinton has a record of working across the aisle.

QUIJANO: Governor, how will you unify the country if you win?

PENCE: Thank you. This is a very challenging time in the life of our country.

It has weakened our place in the world since the leadership of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and — an economy that is stifled by an avalanche of taxes, regulation, Obamacare, the war on coal, and trade dealers -- trade deals which have put Americans in the back seat. The best way we can bring people together is to change in Washington DC.

I served with many Republicans and Democrats, men and women of goodwill. The potential is there to change the direction of this country but it is going to take leadership to do it.

The American people want to see our nation standing tall on the world stage again. They want to see it supporting our military, rebuilding the military, command the respect of the world and they want to see the American economy off to the races. A comeback.

Donald Trump square has been about holding, coming through hardship, finding a way through smarts and ingenuity and resilience to get through. When he becomes president the United States will have a stronger America. When you hear him say he wants to make America great again, when he does that I truly believe the American people will be standing tall.

They will see that real change can happen after years of talking about it. Decades. They will stand tall, stand together, and we will have the kind of unity that has been missing for so long.

QUIJANO: Gentlemen, thank you so much. My thanks to the candidates, the commission, interview for watching. Tune in on Sunday for the second presidential debate at Washington university in St. Louis and the final debate at the university of Las Vegas -- Nevada Las Vegas. Good night.


 Presidential Debate Schedule
September 26th, 2016   |   Hempstead, NY

October 4th, 2016   |   Farmville, VA

October 9th, 2016   |   St. Louis, MO

October 19th, 2016   |   Las Vegas, NV


 Presidential Primary Debates
      August 6th, 2015   |   Cleveland, Ohio

      September 16th, 2015   |   Simi Valley, California

      October 13th, 2015   |   Las Vegas, Nevada

      October 28th, 2015   |   Boulder, Colorado

      November 10th, 2015   |   Milwaukee, Wisconsin

      November 14th, 2015   |   Des Moines, Iowa

      December 15th, 2015   |   Las Vegas, Nevada

      December 19th, 2015   |   Manchester, NH

      January 14th, 2016   |   North Charleston, SC

      January 17th, 2016   |   Charleston, South Carolina

      January 28th, 2016   |   Des Moines, Iowa

      February 4th, 2016   |   Durham, New Hampshire

      February 6th, 2016   |   Manchester, NH

      February 11th, 2016   |   Milwaukee, Wisconsin

      February 13th, 2016   |   Greenville, South Carolina

      February 25th, 2016   |   Houston, Texas

      March 3rd, 2016   |   Detroit, Michigan

      March 6th, 2016   |   Flint, Michigan

      March 9th, 2016   |   Miami, Florida

      March 10th, 2016   |   Miami, Florida

      April 14th, 2016   |   Brooklyn, New York

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